Forums - Rules of blocking after un-flying Show all 32 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Rules of blocking after un-flying (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=15188) Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:27:2001 08:17 AM: OK, I've done a bit of testing, and here's what I've found. First of all, the teams I used to test this were: Sentinel (flying character with nothing else) Bison (flying character with a teleport, no airdash) Doom (flying character with an airdash, divekick, no teleport) vs. triple B-Blackheart (HOD) Basically, I'd do whatever flying setup I wanted, push triple team, unfly and see if I could block. Here are my conclusions: As many of you know, there are some situations in which you cannot airblock after you stop flying. Let's cover when you *can't* airblock first. First of all, you cannot airblock if you cancel a *contacting* flying normal with the unfly command. If the flying normal whiffs (touches nothing) and you cancel it into unfly, provided you meet all other requirements, you will be able to airblock after unflying. Second, you cannot airblock after unflying if you were in the air and you already airblocked *or* did a normal attack before/during the point when you started flying. If you were on the ground when you started flying, provided that you don't cancel a contacting normal into unfly, you will be able to airblock. You *can* do an air special, an air super, an airdash, or call an assist, and still be able to block after unflying. Reflying (unfly, fly while still airborne) does NOT reset your status. You must land to be able to airblock after unflying (if you are in a non-airblock state). *Teleporting,* however, WILL reset your blocking state. (Bison/Dhalsim). IOW, if you are flying in a sitaution when you will not be able to block when you unfly, and you teleport and then refly (all while airborne), you will be able to block after you cancel *that* flying. (rules of cancelling notwithstanding) I know this is probably worded very badly, but let me try to summarize... When starting your flying: 1) If you were on the ground, you can airblock when you unfly. 2) If you were in the air, and you did not airblock or normal attack, you can airblock when you unfly. 3) Teleporting resets everything you've done When cancelling your flying: 4) If you cancel a normal that hits something, you cannot airblock after unfly. Not too complicated... One thing you may run into... sometimes, if you try to start flying while in the air, if your motion is not perfect, you will get a 1 frame short or RH, and that counts as an air normal attack, meaning that you cannot block when you unfly. For purposes of this test, I held down both kicks and did QCB+release KK to fly, to eliminate that. This entire test was somewhat difficult to nail down, and a lot of times I wasn't able to block when I should have been able to, or vice versa. The results I came up with were the most consistent ones I could reproduce. If anyone has any info to add (TESTED INFORMATION ONLY, PLEASE; NO ANECDOTES) I would appreciate it. Posted by blt on 04:27:2001 12:45 PM: question, was this flying done out of a normal jump or superjump? like suppose i superjump fierce with sentinel and it hits the opponent, then i fly and unfly, will I be able to block ? Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:27:2001 03:57 PM: It doesn't matter whether you're in a normal jump or a superjump. As far as the Sentinel question, if you jump and push fierce, and you fly anytime before you touch the ground, you cannot airblock when you unfly. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 04:28:2001 12:31 AM: Interesting. Would it be fair to say that if you were unable to block at the time you started flying, you will not be able to block? This is the mindset I've always used, and I can't think of a time (in-match) where I've found my guess wrong. Still, I've never gone and tested out every case. Here's one that I know is correct, from match experience: If Ironman/War Machine is flying and does his kneedive, it ends flight (and he is unable to block). If he cancels the kneedive back into flight, if/when he unflies, he will not be able to block. Does this hold true if other normals that end flight (such as Doom's Roundhouse) are used? -DFA Posted by Clockw0rk on 04:30:2001 05:15 PM: bump, cause it deserves one - Clockw0rk Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:01:2001 04:12 PM: DFA: I believe I tested this, but I'm not 100% sure. The question you asked ("Can you airblock after unfly if you were able to block when you activated flying?") has a couple of answers. First of all, if you cancel into flying from a ground normal (which is technically a "not able to block" state) you can airblock whne you unfly. I admit that that is a bit of nitpicking. As far as normal jumps are concerned, it doesn't really apply; on a normal jump, if you do a normal attack or airblock, then fly, you can't airblock when you unfly. However, if you do a special/super, then fly, you can airblock (your block was already "expired" when you activated flying). As far as super jumps are concerned, I tested both a completed whiffed normal (IOW, returning to a state when I could airblock again), and airblocking before I flew, and I couldn't airblock after unfly in either case. Posted by Sabin on 05:01:2001 05:01 PM: Dan, Thanks for this post. Very informative. =) BTW, am I going to see you when I go to Cali for E3? - Arturo Posted by Jinmaster on 05:01:2001 08:53 PM: I'm slightly confused... If I superjump up with sent and block a bullet from cable then push-block, then fly when I recover, I cannot block until I touch the ground correct? Any non-super non-special non-assist move I use on a SJ before I fly will result in me not being able to block after unflying, but if I SJ up with nothing, fly, and use normals during flight I can still block when unlying? To simplify, a dashing forward sentinel SJ.roundhouse cancelled into flight would make it so you cannot block after unfly, but if you SJ up and do nothing and fly, then you can block? If I SJ-thorw with sentinel and then fly, can I block after? The answer is yes right? If I am storm and from the ground, I lightning attack up, what jump state am I in(normal I think), and what is the rule for blocking(probably can block only once), and flying and unflying? Also, can you fly and unfly and re-fly again without touching the ground on a normal jump arc? Flight initiated from the ground? Flifght initiated after a special move like a lighting attack? SJ arc? Thanks. Posted by TimeFlip on 05:01:2001 09:13 PM: I'm confused...what does "sticky" mean? I have no questions as of yet... Posted by Truedragon on 05:01:2001 09:13 PM: good informative post, albeit a bit confusing. Posted by NJzFinest on 05:01:2001 10:47 PM: your information is not all correct. i have done a combo with sentinel where you do 2 roundhouses in the air on an opponent. you said that if you cancel into unfly from a normal move then you couldnt airblock. when you can airblock you can do any other normal move like the roundhouse. i've tried to find out reasons why sentinel can and cant block from when he unflies and i havet found much but youre wrong on that one part. Posted by Bruton on 05:02:2001 12:11 AM: Thanks Spider-Dan, this is very informative. A few queries though: For Iron Man's long combo, that means that if you whiff any part of it before the Unibeam, you can't block until you get down even if you throw out a whiffed jab afterwards and then refly, as you have already attacked before you started flying? What happens if you *connect* a special move like a Unibeam on the end of the combo? It means you can fly? And if you whiff, it's usually advisable to call a helper or airdash away before you unfly, just so that you can block? A teleport counts as a special move though, doesn't it, and therefore can't it be listed under the "able to block after a special move"? Is it likely that there are character-specific rules to flying? E.g. as Sentinel hasn't been seen since COTA, yet they have changed the rules for flying since then and they may have missed him? Stomp kicks with flying(Doom, IM, WM) are special in that you are allowed to call helpers after them, do these normal follow the same rules as other normals with regards to flying? E.g. Doing Doom's infinite, fly too late after a F.RK, then unfly? A Sentinel who jumps with J.LK, J.RK XX flies as a popular trap is susceptible to a tag-in so long as you don't get hit by a helper/miss as he can't block until he touches the ground? From the sounds of it, it sounds like when you come out of flying status, you're in normal jump status. I.e. Normal Jump[Flying]Normal Jump, with the exception of being on the ground in the first place, as many of the normal jump principles seem to apply? Posted by captainsaveahoe on 05:02:2001 03:51 AM: This might help a article in the article section on guard breaking http://www.shoryuken.com/features/s000920.shtml Posted by trbiggie on 05:02:2001 05:49 AM: thanks spiderdan I learned something new!!!!!! Posted by Dasrik on 05:02:2001 02:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by TimeFlip I'm confused...what does "sticky" mean? I have no questions as of yet... "Sticky" means the thread stays at the top... Posted by evil_gouki on 05:02:2001 03:02 PM: well soon as u get off to super jump yeh u can block but when ur actively flying(airborn) then no u can't block unless u cancel it which means u'll be on the ground again if that's what u wanted to know? e.g magneto air gravatation once hit goes to ground even when trying to block Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:02:2001 05:11 PM: Wow. Lot of replies now, guess I should have checked back. Where was everyone when I posted this? Sabin: Yes, I will be at E3. Jinmaster: quote: If I superjump up with sent and block a bullet from cable then push-block, then fly when I recover, I cannot block until I touch the ground correct? That should be correct, though I didn't specifically test pushblocking. quote: Any non-super non-special non-assist move I use on a SJ before I fly will result in me not being able to block after unflying, but if I SJ up with nothing, fly, and use normals during flight I can still block when unlying? Correct. quote: To simplify, a dashing forward sentinel SJ.roundhouse cancelled into flight would make it so you cannot block after unfly, but if you SJ up and do nothing and fly, then you can block? Correct. quote: If I SJ-thorw with sentinel and then fly, can I block after? The answer is yes right? I didn't test throws. My guess would be yes. I'll mess with it. (if so, I'll see if it resets a "no unfly airblock" state) quote: If I am storm and from the ground, I lightning attack up, what jump state am I in(normal I think), and what is the rule for blocking(probably can block only once), and flying and unflying? I didn't test this either. If she can attack or block after a ground-to-air lightning attack, she should be able to airblock after an unfly, given that she does nothing else between the lightning attack and fly command. quote: Also, can you fly and unfly and re-fly again without touching the ground on a normal jump arc? The game appears to track your state until a) you hit the ground or b) you teleport. (airthrowing could possibly be c). Reflying doesn't change your state; if you were in an "unfly airblock allowed" state, you will be when you refly. quote: Flight initiated from the ground? Flifght initiated after a special move like a lighting attack? SJ arc? As I said, any flight initiated from the ground puts you in "unfly airblock allow" state, unless you do something to override that (namely, cancel a flying normal into unfly command). The game does not ditinguish between normal and super jumps WRT flying. NJzFinest: quote: your information is not all correct. i have done a combo with sentinel where you do 2 roundhouses in the air on an opponent. J.RH-Flying-F.RH (2 hit combo) Please test any information you have that disproves my theory... anecdotes don't really help us figure out anything. Thank you. Bruton: quote: For Iron Man's long combo, that means that if you whiff any part of it before the Unibeam, Which combo is this? quote: you can't block until you get down even if you throw out a whiffed jab afterwards and then refly, as you have already attacked before you started flying? What happens if you *connect* a special move like a Unibeam on the end of the combo? I didn't test combos, so I can't say for sure. Doing special moves will not affect your ability to airblock after unfly, but they also will not *reset* your ability to airblock if you've done something else that put you in a "no unfly airblock allowed" state. So according to the theory, once you throw out the first non-flying normal, IM should not be able to block until he touches the ground. quote: It means you can fly? I wasn't sure what you meant by this (even in context) but you can always fly or unfly, regardless of whatever else is going on. quote: And if you whiff, it's usually advisable to call a helper or airdash away before you unfly, just so that you can block? A point that may need to be clarified: Airdashing, specials, supers, assists will not change your unfly airblock state in any way. That means that if you were still in "unfly airblock allow" you still will be, and if you weren't, you won't be. None of those moves reset your state. The only airborne move you can do that will reset your state is a teleport. (airthrows under review) quote: A teleport counts as a special move though, doesn't it, and therefore can't it be listed under the "able to block after a special move"? No, teleports are special... they are the only airborne move that actually reset your state back to "unfly airblock allow." quote: Is it likely that there are character-specific rules to flying? E.g. as Sentinel hasn't been seen since COTA, yet they have changed the rules for flying since then and they may have missed him? That's why I tested the characters I did. All of them have unique attributes and capabilities WRT air movement. There's a COTA character, a MSH character, and a SF character, one of which has an air dash, one of which has a teleport, one of which has a divekick, one of which has barebones flying. The rules were pretty consistent, so I saw no need to test everyone. quote: Stomp kicks with flying(Doom, IM, WM) are special in that you are allowed to call helpers after them, do these normal follow the same rules as other normals with regards to flying? Divekicks simply put you in normal jump state, which allows you to call an assist. Flying doesn't care what type of jump you are in, so a normal attack is a normal attack; if you fly after a divekick you can't airblock when you unfly. quote: A Sentinel who jumps with J.LK, J.RK XX flies as a popular trap is susceptible to a tag-in so long as you don't get hit by a helper/miss as he can't block until he touches the ground? Theoretically, correct. quote: From the sounds of it, it sounds like when you come out of flying status, you're in normal jump status. I.e. Normal Jump[Flying]Normal Jump, with the exception of being on the ground in the first place, as many of the normal jump principles seem to apply? Not quite... for example, if you normal jump and do a super, you can't airblock on the way down, but if you fly right there instead, then unfly, you can airblock. I didn't test what state you are in after unfly (when you can block), WRT stuff like post-unfly airblock guard breaks. As I said, I encourage all of you to test this on your own and post your results. Please try to be specific with characters used, and actions performed. (Watch out for 1 frame air normals before specials or fly commands!) Posted by Paxtez on 05:02:2001 10:06 PM: So even if you superjump then block an attack, fly, unfly, you won't be able to block again, even though you would have if you didn't fly? Ok, we know that normal jump + super/special = Helpless But... Fly, super/special, unfly = Able to block? Is blocking considered connecting? So sj, fly, hk (blocked),unfly = Not being able to block? Ever thought of doing a flow chart for this? Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:02:2001 10:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by Paxtez So even if you superjump then block an attack, fly, unfly, you won't be able to block again, even though you would have if you didn't fly? Correct. quote: Ok, we know that normal jump + super/special = Helpless Actually, that's not true... if you fly, unfly, after that sequence, you can airblock. quote: But... Fly, super/special, unfly = Able to block? You should be able to block. quote: Is blocking considered connecting? So sj, fly, hk (blocked),unfly = Not being able to block? What you do during the flight shouldn't matter. So as long as you didn't cancel that RH into unfly, you can airblock when you unfly. Posted by NJzFinest on 05:03:2001 01:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan NJzFinest: J.RH-Flying-F.RH (2 hit combo) Please test any information you have that disproves my theory... anecdotes don't really help us figure out anything. Thank you. youre not listening to me spider-dan. there is a combo where you can do a flying roundhouse then cancel into unfly and kick them on the way down. Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:03:2001 06:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by NJzFinest youre not listening to me spider-dan. I know how that feels. quote: there is a combo where you can do a flying roundhouse then cancel into unfly and kick them on the way down. That's actually not what you said... you said that you comboed two air roundhouses, and I provided an example of that. Not to be blunt, but can you actually provide the sequence to do this? This is the third time I've asked for specifics instead of anecdotes. Posted by kdcmarvel on 05:03:2001 06:58 AM: What's up, Spiderdan? I remember that a while ago I tested(DC practice mode) a little Cable vs Sentinel tactic. I did flight with Sentinel(three times, once off the ground, once from normal jump and the last from sjump) and then I tried to guard break on the way down, after deactivate the flight. To do the guard break, I used the easier Ahvb(enemy blocks), another AHVB(after block stun). And it worked for all the 3 states! I'm not sure if this can be applied for the real game, because the practice mode it's a little glitchy(I remember talking about it with Jinmaster at his thread, because I thought I knew a throw into AHVB combo, but it only worked at the pratice mode). But, I did it with the CPU on "manual", which makes me think that it has good chances to be true at actual games too. [b] Edit: Oops, I just checked the gb article and it says that the unfly puts you at a normal jump situation, so guard breaks after it seems to be old news. Anyway, if I have any new info I'll bring it here. Very nice thread! I will mess with it a little more(hopefully with a friend) and I'll bring any new results that I got. See you all later! Posted by Bruton on 05:03:2001 12:13 PM: Spider-Dan: Sorry, where I said "It means you can fly?" I meant "It means you can unfly and block"... way off track there. From what you said, I can't block as soon as I go into flying... I thought you initially meant that all specials/supers reset the status, but all of the other information has clarified this, thanks. The combo is J.LK, J.FP, C.LP, C.LK, C.MP, S.RK, SJ(LP, LK, MP, MK, U.FP) XX air dash up/foward, SJ(LK, U.FP) XX Flying: F(LP, LK, MP, U.FP XX LP.Unibeam). This is the standard air combo I do all the time, and I guess the only thing to do is to omit the flying portion, or call a helper and get to the ground fast. Oh, and I also call a helper and throw them into it in the corner(e.g. Jill Gamma, throw, F.LK, F.MP, F.U.FP XX LP.Unibeam, repeat to kill-each cycle does about 59 points I think, so they're dead on the second one), and throw to Doom Beta to infinite(hard timing). Jinmaster: I did a Lightning Attack from the ground to air and I couldn't throw FP's after it... it seems like normal jump status, and thus "2) If you were in the air, and you did not airblock or normal attack, you can airblock when you unfly." Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:03:2001 03:50 PM: I forgot to test lightning attacks, but I did test airthrows (only with Sentinel, but it should be the same with everyone). Airthrows count as a normal attack, as far as flying is concerned. That means: 1) if you fly after an airthrow you can't airblock when you unfly 2) airthrows do not reset your status Posted by NJzFinest on 05:03:2001 11:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan I know how that feels. That's actually not what you said... you said that you comboed two air roundhouses, and I provided an example of that. Not to be blunt, but can you actually provide the sequence to do this? This is the third time I've asked for specifics instead of anecdotes. SJ, Fly, Roundhouse kick, cancel into unfly, Roundhouse kick while coming down. Posted by Big Pete Roasa on 05:07:2001 12:43 AM: Un stick this mother fucker no one cares any more Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:07:2001 03:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by NJzFinest SJ, Fly, Roundhouse kick, cancel into unfly, Roundhouse kick while coming down. This does not work. Tested. Please test any further objections. Thank you. Posted by NJzFinest on 05:08:2001 01:37 AM: doesnt work all the time but it does work. I have done it. i'm not lying. it doesnt always work. you have to do it for a while. i dont know the exact rules of unflying but i know that you can do the combo once in a while. now maybe if you would try it instead of just saying " PLEASE TEST ANY INFORMATION" then it could just work. just because you havent done it doesnt mean it cant be done however since i have done it i know that it can be done. Posted by Spider-Dan on 05:08:2001 04:20 PM: quote: Originally posted by NJzFinest doesnt work all the time but it does work. I have done it. i'm not lying. it doesnt always work. you have to do it for a while. It does not work. I did do it for a while. It is not reproducible. Why don't you try it and see that it doesn't work? In the process, you might be able to actually provide some useful info to this thread, for a change. quote: i dont know the exact rules of unflying but i know that you can do the combo once in a while. Please, list all other combos that apparently have no rules, they just work "once in a while," at random. It does not work. quote: now maybe if you would try it instead of just saying " PLEASE TEST ANY INFORMATION" then it could just work. Unlike you, I actually did try it. It doesn't work! quote: just because you havent done it doesnt mean it cant be done It doesn't matter whether I've done it or not. I said it can't be done because... it is not reproducible. (read: it can't be done as you described, at least) quote: however since i have done it i know that it can be done. You seem to be very intent on insisting that it can be done, yet you have zero interest in actually doing it. Perhaps you've already tested it and seen that you couldn't do it, either? Please don't waste everyone's time by responding, unless you actually figure out how to do it. Moderator: Please feel free to remove the "sticky" status from this topic, as there is no significant new info to add. Posted by NJzFinest on 05:09:2001 05:50 AM: hey i'm telling you it works. i've been playing sentinel since the beginning of this game and i know what he can and cant do. i'm telling you its something that can be done. since you have never done it or seen it done you cannot be sure that it cant be done. since you insist on being a fag and trying to disprove me with your non-logic i can tell how smart you are already. i'm simply saying that i have done a combo that disproves part of your theory on flying and unflying. unless you programmed MvC2 you have no right to tell me what can and can't be done in the game. Posted by Monkey on 07:06:2001 04:31 AM: Good shit. Very good shit. I got this down after reading the article on it from ShadyK, and this. w00t! Posted by Shotokan Symphony on 07:10:2001 04:10 AM: Time out! Before we all start talking out of our asses, how about we all try it and see if it works? BTW, Nj, you're talking about sentinel, right? All times are GMT. 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